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[EN-TB-FR-CH] Tibetans martials arts / Les arts martiaux tibétains

 
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PostPosted: Wed 11 Mar - 10:04 (2009)    Post subject: [EN-TB-FR-CH] Tibetans martials arts / Les arts martiaux tibétains
 
Tibetans martials arts
Les arts martiaux tibétains



I know that the Tibet is not famous in Western countries (and even in Tibet of today) by his martial's culture, but more by his religions and painting/writing's culture. Nevertheless the Tibet really possesses a martial culture  which goes from imperial periods (see སྲོང་བཙན་སྒམ་པོ་ Songtsen Gampo) to the monks dob-dob and pass by wrestlings the fights of holidays. I would want that we collect in this message most documents possible about martials arts before 1950 to contribute to the conservation of this part underestimated by the Tibetan culture.


Je sais que le Tibet n'est pas connu dans les pays occidentaux (ni dans le Tibet d'aujourd'hui) pour sa culture martiale, mais plus pour sa culture religieuse et sa culture picturale et scripturale. Pourtant le Tibet possède réellement une culture martiales qui va des périodes impériales (voir སྲོང་བཙན་སྒམ་པོ་ Songtsen Gampo)aux moines dob-dob et en passant par les luttes des jours de fêtes. Je voudrais que nous rassemblions dans ce message le plus de documents possible sur les arts martiaux avant 1950 afin de contribuer à la préservation de cette part méconnue de la culture tibétaine.



  




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PostPosted: Wed 11 Mar - 10:15 (2009)    Post subject: [EN-TB-FR-CH] Tibetans martials arts / Les arts martiaux tibétains
 

  

"Dob dobs (ldob ldob), sometimes translated "punk monks," were worker monks who belonged to fraternities (gling ka). All of the great Geluk academies had such fraternities. The status of dob dobs is ambiguous. On the one hand, they had a reputation for being pugnacious, partisan and for having more interests in worldly matters (like sports and boys) than in the religious life. (...)


On Dob dobs In General


"The Dob - dob are a special body of monks, found only in the great monasteries of Drepung, Sera and Ganden, distinguished for their physical strength and courage. Young monks who are strong and active and who can't find a teacher or are bad at learning, are drawn to join one of the groups into which the Dob - dob organize themselves and which go in for the most strenuous sports and exercises. They used to meet, as soon as it was light, in a sandy valley to the west of Sera, take a shower under a cold waterfall or a dip in a little stream and then run naked in the sand, wrestle, or practise carrying and throwing heavy stones. The most important exercise was long - jumping off a raised ramp and formerly there were great competitions with the Dob - dob of Drepung who were Sera’s long - standing rivals. The competition had to be stopped some time ago because there was a big fight and a monk was killed; but it was a Dob – dob’s ambition to be a good jumper and tough and skilful in all sports.

They did not study books, at least when young, though some of them took trouble to learn to read and write. But they did learn some prayers by heart. One of their tasks was to play the oboe and long trumpet at ceremonies. I think Dote Chandzo [JC: one of Tashi Khdrup's teachers] sent me to learn music because he knew I wanted to be a Dob - dob. He was one himself and had been involved in a famous fight with a Dob - dob of Drepung, whose teeth he knocked out with a pestle. Dob - dobs could be recognized by the special way they wore their monk’s dress. The skirt part of it was longer than usual, but they kept it kilted up rather higher than the ordinary monks. That gave them a bulky look round the thighs, which they exaggerated by swinging their buttocks as they walked. Their hair was worn rather long, with a big curl trained round the left ear and down on to the cheek, and they often blackened their faces round the eyes to make themselves look fierce. Round their bare right arm, just above the elbow, they always tied a red silk scarf, and they usually had a big, heavy key hanging from their girdle not so much for use as for a weapon.

Dob - dobs are an accepted institution and are recorded as such in the books of their khamtsen. They are not supposed to wear their long locks in the monastery, especially inside the assembly hall; but they manage to hide them by tucking them behind their ears. However, those who are chosen as assistants to the Shengo at the Great Prayer can’t get away with that, and have to sacrifice their treasured hair. To make up for it, they paint a lock in black soot on their cheek and keep it there until the real thing has grown again. Dob - dobs have all sorts of jobs to do as well as playing musical instruments and being a sort of monastery police. They go as bodyguards to monastic officials on their travels; they may even hire themselves to lay officials as traveling escorts. Many of the younger ones help to make and serve the tea in the various assemblies. Those who are good at business or understand farming may become stewards or treasurers of a Labrang, like Dote Chandzo, or of the country estates of a khamtsen.

I know that they have been given a bad name in western books, as quarrelsome, violent bullies who terrorized other monks and went in for immoral practices. That is by no means the whole truth. Any Tibetan will tell you that they are not only often amazingly strong and brave, but are also famous among all for open - handed generosity. It is true that they often fight, but what else can be expected if they are allowed to cultivate strength and daring? And it is true that their fights were often about favourite boys, but what else can be expected in a community of only men and boys? That sort of behaviour was not looked on as exceptionally bad, and probably the people of Lhasa preferred that monks should keep to themselves and not worry their womenfolk. Many of their fights and favourites were in a way just part of a game. It was a long - standing challenge to the Dob - dob to try to carry off some boy of a good family from Lhasa; and that led to fights in the city. In the monastery, too, some of them felt they had to have a fight now and then to prove they were strong and afraid of nothing. There was often no question even of a quarrel, but one of them would challenge some other Dob - dob who fancied himself as a fighter. But it is not true that they spent all their lives in fighting and indulgence. Many never fought at all; and many lived together in lifelong friendship of a simple and natural kind. The toughest of them were often the most generous, and would give away their money freely to some poor monk who was in difficulties, and to laymen too."


Initiation into the Dob dobs


"The association I joined had about 36 members who came from different colleges all over the monastery. That made it possible to meet a lot of new friends. There was no entrance fee, but each member contributed what he could to a common fund from which we bought food, which we ate in one another's rooms. Usually meetings were held in the room of the leader who was that one - armed monk who had taught me the oboe. He had been a famous jumper and fighter, but was very quiet in his manner though he saw to it that discipline was properly kept. Clubs of that sort, which we called kyidu -- that means that everyone shares the good and bad alike -- might last for many years or might break up and reform into new groups. If a member died, a share of his property went to the kyidu, some went to pay the men whose duty it was to cut up his dead body, and the rest to his college.

When I joined the Dob – dob I went to live with my friend Sonam, who had a room of his own. It was a pleasant change from the kitchen of the Labrang, which was always full of people…
As Dob - dob candidates we had to work for the kyidu for several months, cooking for the others and cleaning their rooms and doing odd jobs. We used to go to their exercises every day but were not allowed to take part in the jumping until we were full members. We were under the orders of the jumping master, who kept very strict discipline. We had to lay out our clothes tidily in the right order and only run or throw stones where and when we were told. The master controlled the jumping practice of the Dob - dobs and carried a spade handle with which he marked the distances. It was used, too, to keep order if the candidates were noisy or played the fool. The whole business was taken very seriously. My work in the khamtsen was to look after the horses but there were a lot of novices there, so I did not have nearly so much to do as in the Labrang.

Some days Sonam and I went to the morning assembly in our college and then, when I had finished my work, we would go about with our friends in the Kyidu. Through one of them, called Dawa, I met an older Dob - dob from Drepung known as Nechung Batsai – “Pockmarked Nechung” -- because his face was deeply pitted with smallpox scars. Although there was a traditional rivalry, that did not prevent us making friends with monks in Drepung. We often met them in Lhasa and sometimes went quite easily to their colleges. And on our special ceremony in Sera, when a very holy dagger with three sides, which fell from heaven, was brought out to be displayed, the monks of Drepung were always invited to be present. They wore their yellow hats on their left shoulder entertained them to lunch…"


The First Fight


"About that time I was, I suppose, nearly 15 and, as a Dob - dob candidate, I was on the look - out for a chance to prove my strength and spirit to my friends. In fact, I was quite ready for a fight if one offered. And I had my first that winter before the New Year.
I was waiting one morning on the stone steps outside the Assembly Hall with a lot of other monks. There had been a little snow and we were standing about, wrapped up in our cloaks, trying to warm up in the sun before the gates were opened. I was on the edge of the stone balustrade of the stairway when another monk pushed me off. He was a boy I knew slightly and disliked. There was no particular reason; we just did not like one another; you know how it is. He laughed when I stumbled into the snow, and that made me furious. I leaped at him and hit him on the head with my wooden tea bowl -- we all carried them in the pouch of our robe. Other monks restrained us because we had to go into the Assembly, where we glared at one another from a distance. I got out first and lay in wait for him and threw several stones at him. He rushed at me swinging his big key on a strap and hit me on the head. He nearly knocked me out and I was streaming with blood but I had a knife and managed to get at him and hit him in the side and knocked him down. Then I made off in a hurry. Of course, I ought not to have been carrying a knife. That is strictly forbidden except for the monks of a special monastery who carry one with a long flexible blade for making dough offerings. But most Dob - dobs usually had a knife about them somewhere, and sometimes in a fight a monk might get killed. If that happened the killer would be terribly beaten and thrown out of the monastery in a dirty white garment. And anyone found carrying a knife would be flogged even if he had never used it. So I was a bit anxious until I heard that the other boy was not badly hurt.
Lots of people had seen the fight so the Proctors soon heard about it and sent their servants to bring us to them in the Assembly Hall. They asked briefly what had happened and we told the truth. They immediately ordered us to be flogged. The other boy was beaten first and he got 30 double strokes because he had started the fight. I had to kneel on my bare knees and watch. Then the four servants caught hold of me and laid me face downwards on the floor; my robe was pulled up and I was flogged with willow branches by two servants, one on each side, who gave me 25 strokes each in quick succession. Fortunately I knew the servants and they did not take too long about it. It was very painful and drew blood, but I didn't cry out. It would have been the end of me as a Dob - dob if I had. I bit the fold of my cloak between my teeth to help me.
The other boy and I made it up after that; at least, we did not fight again though we didn’t really like each other any better. My Dob - dob friends were quite pleased with me; and I was quite pleased with myself, too. My buttocks and legs were bruised and sore for a long time but Sonam spread raw egg on them and I lay face downwards in the sun whenever I could. Plentiful dressings of butter helped, too but I suffered a good deal for about a month. I have the marks still…" "

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PostPosted: Wed 11 Mar - 13:07 (2009)    Post subject: [EN-TB-FR-CH] Tibetans martials arts / Les arts martiaux tibétains
 
http://pakhok.free.fr/phkf/Accueil.html
 
http://www.pakhokpai.com/
 

Arts martiaux du TIBET :

Lama Pai
Hop Gar
" styles de la mâchoire du lion "
Pak Hok
Si Jih Hao
" Style de la grue Blanche "


En ce qui concerne le "Le Pak Hok", c'est un style qu'utilisaient les lamas pour leur propre sécurité.
Mais il paraitrait que les gardes du corps du dalai-lama pratiqueraient un truc strictement interne à eux.

Certaines pratiques existeraient aussi dans certaines branches du bouddhisme tibétain sont plus proches du corporel que du martial
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PostPosted: Wed 11 Mar - 15:25 (2009)    Post subject: [EN-TB-FR-CH] Tibetans martials arts / Les arts martiaux tibétains
 
I read that Baguazhang may have its origin in a Tibetan form of circle walking and meditation. Anyone knows something about it?
Also anybody read some of the books by Alexandra David Neel, like "Magic and Mystery in Tibet" for example? She talks there about hermits meditating naked in the snow, about the lung-om-pa who could walk quickly in a meditation trance for many hours. Also, the strangest thing I read about was "tulpa" ("srulpa"), where people could materialize their thoughts. Also, I read about some recent cases of "rainbow body" in Tibet - with the body of a person who reached a high spiritual level slowly dissapearing in a few weeks after the death of I've got some documentation, but not much, on these themes, but I think they are related to the martial arts. Tibet had this unconventional direction of development during the old times, not insisting so much on technology but on spiritual development, and I think this is the most important part of their culture that needs to be saved, preserved and used for the the well being of all mankind. We insist too much on technology around the world and neglect the development of the human being as a whole .


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PostPosted: Wed 11 Mar - 16:53 (2009)    Post subject: [EN-TB-FR-CH] Tibetans martials arts / Les arts martiaux tibétains
 
vajra35 wrote:
http://pakhok.free.fr/phkf/Accueil.html
 
http://www.pakhokpai.com/
 

Arts martiaux du TIBET :

Lama Pai
Hop Gar
" styles de la mâchoire du lion "
Pak Hok
Si Jih Hao
" Style de la grue Blanche "


En ce qui concerne le "Le Pak Hok", c'est un style qu'utilisaient les lamas pour leur propre sécurité.
Mais il paraitrait que les gardes du corps du dalai-lama pratiqueraient un truc strictement interne à eux.

Certaines pratiques existeraient aussi dans certaines branches du bouddhisme tibétain sont plus proches du corporel que du martial


Les pistes monastiques sont obscures et empreintes de mysticisme... Il parait malaisé de les étudier dans plonger dans des légendes... Il serait peut-être intéressant d'étudier s'il existe d'autres pistes... Aristocrates et rurales par exemple...


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PostPosted: Wed 11 Mar - 16:57 (2009)    Post subject: [EN-TB-FR-CH] Tibetans martials arts / Les arts martiaux tibétains
 
Gebeleizis wrote:

I read that Baguazhang may have its origin in a Tibetan form of circle walking and meditation. Anyone knows something about it?
Also anybody read some of the books by Alexandra David Neel, like "Magic and Mystery in Tibet" for example? She talks there about hermits meditating naked in the snow, about the lung-om-pa who could walk quickly in a meditation trance for many hours. Also, the strangest thing I read about was "tulpa" ("srulpa"), where people could materialize their thoughts. Also, I read about some recent cases of "rainbow body" in Tibet - with the body of a person who reached a high spiritual level slowly dissapearing in a few weeks after the death of I've got some documentation, but not much, on these themes, but I think they are related to the martial arts. Tibet had this unconventional direction of development during the old times, not insisting so much on technology but on spiritual development, and I think this is the most important part of their culture that needs to be saved, preserved and used for the the well being of all mankind. We insist too much on technology around the world and neglect the development of the human being as a whole .


mmhh... i know a little bit baguazhang and i think it's only to make it more famous... and... Alexandra David Neel made a great work but, in antropology it's always very dangerous to mix too much legend and fact... i took some photos on a pillar about tibet history and wars... but it will take time to write and translate...


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PostPosted: Wed 11 Mar - 17:47 (2009)    Post subject: [EN-TB-FR-CH] Tibetans martials arts / Les arts martiaux tibétains
 
oui Beau  mais moi même j'ai vécu des experiences simillaires


de marche rapide dans l'atlas marocain sur des chemin de chèvre à la pleine lune
au québec par moins 20 - 30 pratiquer la réspiration du souffle interieur contre le froid
se sont ces éxperiences qui mon fait découvrir le Bouddhisme tibétain
j'ai étudier la mystique tibétaine pour mieux comprendre mais je pratiquai la sophrologie depuis plusieurs années
il ne faut pas mettre les choses que l'on ne comprend pas sur des légendes
il ne faut pas oublier que nous vivons qu'au travers de concepts
mais  notre vision ne reste que le regard d'un être dans une pièce noire qui regarde par la lucarne

c'est tres restreint               



    
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PostPosted: Wed 11 Mar - 19:14 (2009)    Post subject: [EN-TB-FR-CH] Tibetans martials arts / Les arts martiaux tibétains
 


Un enchaînement dynamique de postures
Dans la tradition tibétaine, le corps est notre véhicule terrestre qui doit nous mener à l’Eveil. Dans cet objectif, on va travailler sur les canaux subtils pour les préparer, les purifier et les assouplir à l’aide d’exercices, de massages et de postures. « On prend pour appui le corps physique qui est une interface avec ce qu’on appelle les canaux subtils dans lesquels passent les loung, - les souffles - qui sont les courants de manifestation des consciences », explique Lama Shérab Namdreul. Plus spécifiquement dans la pratique tantrique, on distingue deux phases dans les pratiques yogiques : la phase de développement et la phase de perfection.
« La phase de développement, c’est la visualisation : le yogi apprend à se visualiser sous la forme d’une déité et apprend ensuite à réciter son mantra pour mûrir le pouvoir de la déité en lui. Une fois cette étape franchie, il entre dans les yogas internes » (Philippe Cornu). La phase de perfection consiste à travailler là encore sur les canaux subtils, les chakras, les souffles qui circulent dans les canaux et les « gouttes essentielles ». S’entraîner à pratiquer des respirations en vase par exemple - respirations spécifiques qui comprennent des rétentions et des compressions – constitue l’un des axes de la progression spirituelle dans le Vajrayâna qui comprend à la fois les pratiques tantriques et le Dzogchen.
Certaines postures peuvent rappeler des asanas hindouistes, même si l’enchaînement des postures est ici très dynamique : « C’est un yoga actif, dynamique et vigoureux. On ne reste jamais longtemps dans les postures », précise Philippe Cornu. Sauts réalisés en posture de lotus (« bebs »), claques ou flexions, constituent quelques-unes des particularités posturales assez spectaculaires et propres au yoga tibétain.
Des yogas encore secrets
Secrets pour la plupart, ces yogas nécessitent non seulement une très bonne condition physique, mais également un engagement de longue haleine. C’est pourquoi ces yogas ne sont pas enseignés au tout-venant. Et même si dans certains centres, comme à l’ermitage Yogi Ling, des stages sont ouverts à tous, il est fondamental de vérifier son intention et sa motivation spirituelle avant de s’inscrire : « On ne fait pas du yoga avec des préoccupations mondaines : pour l’hygiène, pour maigrir ou pour des performances physiques », rappelle Lama Shérab Namdreul, enseignant de yoga au centre Yogi Ling. Le yoga physique ne constitue qu’une méthode parmi d’autres pour viser l’Eveil dans la tradition tibétaine. Utile, efficace mais pas incontournable. Ce que confirme Lama Shérab Namdreul : « Ca peut être utile de faire du yoga physique pour les personnes très agitées, par exemple, parce que ça calme le corps, mais l’essentiel c’est d’arriver à la méditation de l’esprit ».
L’exemple du Tumo, qui représente un des 6 yogas essentiels [3] transmis non seulement dans la lignée Changpa Kagyu mais aussi dans les autres écoles tibétaines, y compris le Yundrung bön, illustre parfaitement l’approche yogique du corps utilisé comme un moyen d’accès vers des objectifs spirituels ultimes. Dans cette pratique, on va canaliser les souffles subtils dans le bas-ventre (juste en-dessous du nombril) pour augmenter la chaleur du corps. Pratiqués parfois dans la neige et quelle que soit la température extérieure, ce yoga secret présente des aspects souvent spectaculaires à nos yeux d’occidentaux. Mais l’objectif visé est spirituel : « l’idée c’est de transposer cette félicité du corps dans l’esprit : on a une expérience d’éveil où la félicité n’est plus une expérience circonstancielle mais la nature même de l’esprit, car l’esprit est félicité » [4] explique Lama Shérab Namdreul.
A moins de prendre refuge et de s’engager pour de longues années de pratique, aucun de ces yogas secrets ne sera accessible à nous autres occidentaux. Toutefois, soucieux de diffuser ses enseignements au plus grand nombre, Kalou Rinpoché a conçu un ouvrage « Le Yoga Tibétain » qui s’adresse à tous, bouddhistes ou non, et aussi bien aux débutants qu’aux pratiquants avancés.

C’est au 8e siècle que le yoga fait son apparition au Tibet, facilité notamment par le traducteur Pagor Vairocana qui a transmis tout un système de yogas. Puis, au moment de la seconde diffusion du bouddhisme au 11e siècle, de nouveaux textes indiens tantriques arrivent au Tibet » (Philippe Cornu). Chaque lignée a développé ses propres yogas, textes et enseignements : Lama Shérab Namdreul [5], par exemple, appartient à la lignée Changpa Kagyu. Il a reçu ses enseignements de Kalou Rinpoché (1904-1989), un des plus célèbres maîtres tibétains de yoga en occident, lui-même se référant à trois illustres transmetteurs de l’Inde au Tibet : Naropa, Niguma et Sukkhasiddhi [6].
A lire :
« Le Yoga Tibétain » de Kalou Rinpoché , ed. Kunchab.
« Voie Graduelle du Yoga Tibétain » de Neldjorpa Shérab, ed.Yogi Ling
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PostPosted: Fri 13 Mar - 12:45 (2009)    Post subject: [EN-TB-FR-CH] Tibetans martials arts / Les arts martiaux tibétains
 
  yoga tibétain


                               

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Mar - 00:54 (2009)    Post subject: [EN-TB-FR-CH] Tibetans martials arts / Les arts martiaux tibétains
 
I read about the dub-dub monks. By the text (including the link) posted by Beau they sound more like brawlers than martial artists. I should call my grandfather a martial artist, too, as, although he was not an aggressive person, he never lost an empty hand combat in the army or around my village (and he had many)... But nevertheless, the story was interesting. Yet, I believe that, if we dig deeper, there must be some real martial arts in Tibet. Maybe if someone went to the monasteries and red through all the manuscripts, I think there's a huge chance for some great finds... 

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PostPosted: Thu 11 Feb - 05:46 (2016)    Post subject: [EN-TB-FR-CH] Tibetans martials arts / Les arts martiaux tibétains
 
    The article you to share a story that makes work easier.
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PostPosted: Mon 2 Jan - 13:21 (2017)    Post subject: [EN-TB-FR-CH] Tibetans martials arts / Les arts martiaux tibétains
 
Merci pour cet article très complet encore une fois.
consultation voyance gratuite


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